Curse

Cuilan · Jun 25, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Because your only healer henchman is Alesia for 6-8 person areas. So you would either replace her or have another healer in addition to her, unless you're not H/Hing. She's often very low level in normal mode and has AI/skill bar issues regardless of mode.

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The Riven · Jun 25, 2010, 09:26 PM // 21:26

It is all too possible to run an offensive hero bar that contains one or two defensive skills/buffs while maintaining a primarily offensive hero party, the single healer will suffice.
As my main is a paragon it is all to easy to fall back on the classic imbagon build, while this is plenty to ensure a near deathless H/H it does lack in offensive capabilities, You have to learn to maximise the offence on any given hero build. As for WiK.. FS on a hero will ensure no vengeance dervs, VG will neutralise any minions... the list goes on...
They are by no means great AI foe.

Cuilan · Jun 25, 2010, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Never said anything about foe AI and an imbagon is a damage reduction build. When I and many others say healers, they mean the role and not just solid redbar.

Jeydra · Jun 25, 2010, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Off topic, but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Hold up here... ER on a human, very understandable and worthwhile, on a hero.... why bother? Either use hench healers (despite what people say they are more than adequate)
Or if running in a party of more that 2 people, healing should be a very minor part of any team build. The game is now just stupidly easy, H/H a mission and there is never an excuse to bring an ER hero.

I concur - hence I don't really know what's best on an ER hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I often don't either for lesser areas, but I for sure do with the War in Kryta quests for reasons I'm sure you're aware of.

I'm not aware of the reasons. All the WiK stuff I've done so far, I've done running standard spiritway + Alesia. Burning a hero slot on a pure healer is just plain silly in my opinion; the slots are needed for damage.

Cuilan · Jun 26, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Too many experience with Alesia tanking or doing other abnormal things (did mention AI/skills). Sometimes she's fine, but I wouldn't want her bringing down the whole party.

Dusk_ · Jun 26, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Still overkill. Very inflexible one-sided build.

You keep saying that an ER Hero is "overkill", and yet most of the H/H builds I've seen you post contains the same amount of redbarring and protting (six skills worth).

I've commonly run an ER hero with SoGM+SoS rits, with the only other "prot" being an optional Smite Hex or Smite Condition.

Arrogant Bastard · Jun 26, 2010, 03:17 AM // 03:17

With casters, ER heroes aren't that great.

They are very good for melees on the other hand since you are doing the majority of the damage yourself.

kanuks · Jun 26, 2010, 06:37 AM // 06:37

I am very experienced with ER heros builds. When h/h i rarely use them though. Using them more in a mix of heroes/players party. I use one when i do slavers hm with h/h though.

Never use Infuse on them. They don't want to spam it and if you use other heros, they will insta heal the Er ele as he uses infuse, meaning his supposedly nrg free healing skill isn't nrg free anymore (it's the other h/h that spend nrg).

Just use the jamei's gaze/heal other combo.

Also with that setup you don't need life attunement at all.

er, aor, ps, sb, jameis gaze, heal other, aegis, last skill is optionnal. a rez, a condition removal, hex removal, anything u need depending of what you're about to encounter.

Lodar Aric · Jun 26, 2010, 09:17 AM // 09:17

There was a time when i always brought a ER Hero whether it was for missions, VQ's etc. These days i tend to just bring more offense and stick with the healer+ healer or healer+prot henchies.

9 times out of 10 i will bring a MM AOTL Bomber hero (has prot spirit and Aegis), SOS rit and a Panic mesmer hero. With all the spirits and minion tanks they tend to absorb and kill stuff quick enough that needing massive prot isn't always needed.

For the occasional hard mode mission or dungeon i will bring one, but most of the time i find you can get away with just using healer hench and prot hench and use your three slots for offense.

Myotheraccount · Jun 26, 2010, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

You keep saying that an ER Hero is "overkill", and yet most of the H/H builds I've seen you post contains the same amount of redbarring and protting (six skills worth).

I've commonly run an ER hero with SoGM+SoS rits, with the only other "prot" being an optional Smite Hex or Smite Condition.

Nope. I almost never use ER Prot, no need to be fanboy. Oh and get your facts straight too.

Jeydra · Jun 26, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Too many experience with Alesia tanking or doing other abnormal things (did mention AI/skills). Sometimes she's fine, but I wouldn't want her bringing down the whole party.

One word: micro.

@kanuks - just curious but why would you use that over a N/Rt healer? Also without a maintained enchantment it'd seem the hero can't heal himself very well, unless (or maybe even if) it's smart enough to spam PS / SB on itself.

Cuilan · Jun 26, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

One word: micro.

You can't micro single henchman like heroes.

Jeydra · Jun 26, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I bet you 600k, 500 ZKeys and 50 Ectos that you can micro Alesia.

Dusk_ · Jun 26, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Nope. I almost never use ER Prot, no need to be fanboy. Oh and get your facts straight too.

You've run Spiritway, with 3 Prots and 3 Redbars. Most of the other builds I've seen you run or suggest have similar support bars.

I run ER Prot...with 3 Prots, 1 Redbar, 1 Hex Removal and 1 optional.

I think my facts are plenty straight.

Hal · Jun 26, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

One word: micro.

@kanuks - just curious but why would you use that over a N/Rt healer? Also without a maintained enchantment it'd seem the hero can't heal himself very well, unless (or maybe even if) it's smart enough to spam PS / SB on itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You can't micro single henchman like heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I bet you 600k, 500 ZKeys and 50 Ectos that you can micro Alesia.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Henchmen

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alesia

I think it would be safe to say that Jeydra should owe Cuilan the 600k 500 zkeys and 50 ectos based on this information. I do not know any way; besides those that would get you a perm-a-ban, that would allow you to micro manage the skills of Alesia.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Heros

Jeydra · Jun 27, 2010, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I'm waiting for Cuilan to accept the bet so I can show him how to avoid Alesia tanking or doing other abnormal things and bringing down the whole party via micro.

PS: with this kind of bet, pay careful attention to wording.

Dusk_ · Jun 27, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm waiting for Cuilan to accept the bet so I can show him how to avoid Alesia tanking or doing other abnormal things and bringing down the whole party via micro.

PS: with this kind of bet, pay careful attention to wording.

Then you might want to read Cuilan's again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You can't micro single henchman like heroes.

Jeydra · Jun 27, 2010, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Yes. But pay close attention too to what my statement was.

EDIT: On second thoughts just so this thread doesn't go more off topic than it already is -

You can micro Alesia so that she doesn't tank or do other abnormal things, thereby bringing down the whole party, by micro'ing. Not only can you micro Alesia herself (simply flag her ...) you can also micro stuff onto Alesia to mitigate her tanking (Prot Spirit, Resilient Weapon, Aegis, pure heals). Not to mention you can micro her positioning before aggro so she doesn't start tanking in the first place. Therefore although you cannot micro single henchmen without microing the other henchmen, that point is simply irrelevant. You can keep Alesia from causing teamwipes, and therefore WiK or no WiK, there's no need for ER heroes. If Cuilan uses ER heroes while doing WiK stuff for "obvious reasons", then I have to conclude that he needs more practice using heroes, because the only problem I have while doing WiK is me being overconfident. Oh and a "White Mantle Ritualist" having 4 different bars, but that's more annoying than problematic.

Dusk_ · Jun 27, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes. But pay close attention too to what my statement was.

We call that there a "Devil's wager"

.

Amy Awien · Jun 27, 2010, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm not aware of the reasons.

In normal mode and against WiK foes Alesia is not only inadequate, but also a burden to the team, in HM she's fine as healer.

Quote:

I bet you 600k, 500 ZKeys and 50 Ectos that you can micro Alesia.

You can flag her way out of aggro range to provide healing in-between-fights but then you still need something to heal during the fight.
Once you start microing heroes to prot & heal her you are (a) wasting your own skill bar (b) bringing those skills on your heroes.

Btw, are you certain about offering that bet?